waypointing NS 3.2 ladders, ladder problems & issues & fixes Options

[madmax2]

Topic was mainly started for waypointing ladders on NS 3.2 and the specific problems that show up in NS. But any ladder problem discussion for rcbot1 is welcome....

Basic ladder wapointing is here: http://rcbot.bots-united.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=374

I've seen some good discussions in other threads & will add some links to them when I find them...
OK, found them, the first one took forever to locate, there is good ladder info on these pages:

LordSkitch's Ladder drawings: http://rcbot.bots-united.com/forums/index....post&p=3719

Another ladder discussion not specific to NS here: http://rcbot.bots-united.com/forums/index....amp;#entry12645

More Info: http://rcbot.bots-united.com/forums/index....post&p=6666

This disscusion was moved from here: http://rcbot.bots-united.com/forums/index....ost&p=10980
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Yep, I did some game tests, and the ladder problems happen because of some changes made in the NS3.2 mod itself, it's not rcbot. Use either rcbot dll version on NS3.2 (i.e. filebase (rcbot_mm.dll 561240 bytes 7-11-06) or Lordskitch's (Rcbot_mm.dll 1323104 bytes 8-17-08)) , and you get ladder problems, especially fades, either dll on NS3.1 and rcbots climb the ladders well. I found this in the NS3.2 changelog:

Changed ladder functionality for fades.
The fade will never stick to a ladder when actively blinking.
The fade can only climb ladders when its vertical speed is low ( between -175 and 175).

I suspect they did more than just change fades? It looks like I'll have to make adjustments to the ladder wpts, its not every ladder, just some of them, still a pain...

Sandman, If I understand you're awesome diagram, you mean something like this at the bottom:

LWP--JWP---NWP------longer path-------NWP

LWP=ladder wpt
JWP=jump wpt
NWP=normal wpt

and I assume as straight to the ladder as possible..

I do use JWP's at ladders sometimes, usually just at the problem ones.

I did find a problem ladder in ns_caged where i did that and it works great, except for skulks, which I have going around it. (Off topic: Even player skulks can't climb it, you just bounce off, its seems to be a NS3.2 bug! Put the same map in NS3.1 & the ladder works fine for skulks. wierd???)

On NS3.1, this was working pretty good on ladders where it's hard to get a straight line to it:

LWP--NWP-----SCT------

SCT=stay close to wpt

It virtually eliminates skulks getting stuck to the side of the ladder and they would run up a ladder or wallstick path perfectly.

I sometimes use LordSkitch's wallstick/ladder configuration. It seems if I change that first NWP before the LWP to a JWP, the skulks can't hit the ladder or wallstick path properly & bounce off? But it also seems, in NS3.2, a NWP may not be enough to get bots to jump on the ladder reliably?

Like you suggested, I think i'll try squeezing that first JWP (or NWP) next to the LWP a bit tighter to see if that helps (make sure it's a upward trajectory to the ladder). The JWP is definately helping fades get on at the bottom. It also helps onos get off the ladder at the top by causing them to crouch. I'd like to get a good method nailed down, but it almost seems some ladders are just different.

As for the dll version, I seemed to of missed that one, I have multiple versions on both sides of it. That version you are using seems to of come out when NS3.1 was the newest available? I guess it wouldn't matter if you are running whichbot aliens exclusivly on you're server. Did you ever try the newer rcbot dll's for rcbot aliens in classic mode? I really like the way gorges build thier hive & resource defences. If the rcw is good, they can be very fast at hive expansion.

And if you use Lordskitch's modified dll, fades won't try to blink/climb wallsticks anymore. I think it will work in NS3.1 too? I'm going to try that again. The only problem is if you don't have it, his links to it are bad. (here: http://rcbot.bots-united.com/forums/index....showtopic=1011)

[Edit] Lordskitch's rcbot dll's are available here now http://rcbot.bots-united.com/downloads/rcb...bot_8_17_08.zip

I think most of the problems in the rcbot.dll, that you mention, are still present in the newest dll's, lift & welding issues for sure.

Later,

madmax2

[Sandman[SA]]

As you may take note in my sig, I have 2 servers. One of them uses rcbot as marine only. In conjunction with a amxmodx plugin called "Comm AI" which I had modified the origenal of, works very well together.

I have tried combining whichbot and rcbot as alien only on the other server. Now even though rcbots are generally better gorges, they are no where near as combat efficient as whichbots are. But if you give the rcbot marines weapons and HA and turn up some of thier settings, they are a force to be feared.

Oh, and why did you make this new thread? We were still on topic there, were we not?

[madmax2]

The reason I started this thread was to make it easier for new waypointers to find tips on ladder waypointing. The links above point to some good discussions that are buried deep in more generalized thread titles. I've been checking the activity here from time to time, and I see there are guests still viewing threads related to NS on a regular basis. It took me quite a long time to find that one discussion on ladders you guys had back in 2004. I new it was there some place, but I just kept missing it, even using the search function. Anyways, thats why...

Cool Sandman , thats something I allways wanted to do, combining rcbot & whichbot aliens. I tried it way back on NS3b5, and I was having crash problems. So I guess they are much more stable & compatable together now. I do have WB1.05 installed & they are mean fighters, I just hate those lerks chewing my head off, ouch!

I do have that waypoint pack that you included the comm ai stuff with, but I've never installed amxmodx, maybe someday I'll try it out. I do use some of the waypoints though...

Now I'm straying way off topic, but I saw you're thread about closing [SA], glad to hear you had a change of heart. Please keep natural selections alive, you're site would be missed by many out here in "lerker" land... Perhaps i'll come join you're community... I'm on dialup, would I be at a huge disadvantage on you're game servers? Also, I'm west coast. I would need to do some upgrades too, I think? Maybe in a couple months, after summer, I might be able to get my nephews to join too... New members, new blood, new friends might make you feel a whole lot better?

Oh, I think I may have a new way (more like a revision) to waypoint ladders, but I need to test it more to see how some of the different classes respond. but it looks promising so far. stay tuned...

btw, I do WB waypointing too.... I may convert my ns_prometheus waypoints later...shh, don't tell anyone here..

Now back to testing rcbot waypoints.....Oh forgot, gotta mow the lawn too, damn...

Later,
madmax2

[madmax2]

Ok, I did more ladder testing, and while jump to ladder (JWP--LWP) wpts helps most bot classes (marines, gorges, fades, onos) in ns3.2, and skulks can use them, it tends to hurt skulk ladder climbing too. The path to the ladder must be straight & controlled, otherwise skulks tend to catch the side of the ladder more with the jump wpt. Also, if a wallstick path is tied to the bottom ladder wpt, the jump wpt screws up skulk's ability to use the wallstick path too, they can't climb it! To get around this problem I came up with this ladder setup, and it works great, BUT ONLY with LordSkitch's modified dll (8-17-08 or newer). Skulks will fly up the ladder without getting stuck to it. It works excellent on the ladder in ns_caged at upper sewer, as well as some others:

CODE

LWP WS
  |    \
  |      \
  |        \
  |          \
  |            \
  LWP---JWP-----SCT--- (NWP can be used instead of SCT if path is straight to the ladder)

note to newbs: this shows the path to wpt connections, not exact wpt placement. the ladder path should not be straight up as shown. see the links above to get an idea where to place the wpts on ladders.

LWP=ladder wpt
JWP=jump wpt
NWP=normal wpt
SCT=stay close to wpt
WS =wallstick wpt

This should not be used if you are using the rcbotbeta dll from the filebase (7-11-06 or older). It will cause some problems for fades and to a much lesser extent lerks, trying to use the WS path.

If you are using the rcbotbeta dll, i would recommend using Lordskitch's ladder setup instead, and DON'T use a jump wpt, something like this (again, see LordSkitch's drawings in thread above) (it will still give fades some trouble, because of the WS path & the lack of a JWP):

CODE

  LWP  WS
   \    |
    \   |
     \  |
      \ |
       \|
      LWP---NWP-----NWP (SCT can be used here if path to ladder is not staright)

But in most cases, when using the rcbotbeta dll's (7-11-06 or older), it is better to remove WS paths on ladders all together, unless it is a long ladder or difficult for skulks to use the ladder for some reason, like this:

CODE

LWP
  |
  |
  |
  |
  |
  LWP---JWP------NWP------ (straight path to ladder)(JWP is somewhat optional, it depends on the ladder)

or this at bottom

  LWP---JWP------SCT       (no straight path to ladder)
                    \
                      \

Even with jump wpts, rcbots still have trouble with some of those "sticky" ladders, and ns_caged has a number of them...

Also, Ladder & WS paths should allways be one way, up only. A seperate down path should be done when needed...

[Sandman[SA]]

Yeah. I have always used ladders to go up only. If you make them both ways, the bots usually end up bunching up on the ladders if more then one bot atempts to use them. I find it best to avoid ladders going down completely. Instead, route them away from the ladder and have them jump down if it's not to far of a fall.

[madmax2]

Hey Guys,

I've attached an example waypoint of the ladder configuration I detail above. It is only intended for use with LordSkitch's rcbot dll (build 8-17-08) and the ns3.2 version of ns_caged. It's a modified rcw from LordSkitch's waypoints pack, so he gets much of the credit.

The ladders at "upper sewer" & at "stability monitoring" (the ladder over the pipes there), are probably the best examples. All other ladders have some variation of the idea, except the ladder at shipping tunnels & one ladder in sewer.

I originally started modifying this waypoint some time ago (years actually), as a way to learn. Many tweaks/edits have been done to it, all hives have been changed, as well as vents. Skulks can navigate all the vents easily now, without hanging up, including the one from central processing to stability monitoring. The waypoint is very playable.

Issues remain with this rcw, so consider it a wip waypoint, I'm allways tweaking it. I spent time the last 2 days testing & tweaking it again. Bots may hang up at the botton of some ladders sometimes, they should get free or start climbing. Some of this is due to gorges building to close to the ladders, bottom or top, such as ladder in sewer hive to purification and the ladder in auxiliary generator. Hopefully, I fixed the problem I was having with onos getting stuck near the hive in ventilation, due to gorges building around the hive. The waypoint has been onos tested/tweaked, so they do get around, climb the ladders, and get to marine start.

See the included readme, Have fun...

Later,
madmax2

[edit] New wip rcw uploaded dec 5 2012

[madmax2]

I ran a 3 hour game on this last night. I was less than pleased with the result . It was ok, but I was expecting better. The start hive was the generator hive, bots built the sewer hive, i destroyed it. After that it was easy to contain them. Gorges built near the ladders closest to the generator hive, and bots were collecting there, but still making it up the ladders. I didn't like seeing the onos get up the ladders just to turn around and jump back down to defend, they should be more offensive it seems. I forced them to move forward with crouch flags, then they started to take down my defenses. Near the end of the 3 hours the gorges finally built a 2nd hive again, in ventilation. Skulks worked good on the ladders & vents they used .

I'll run some more test games to see what happens with different start hives, I swear I was getting better games with this rcw than what I got last night . This may take a few days, I'll leave the rcw on here for now in case anyone wants to check it out .

[madmax2]

Ok, I did more tweaking & testing on this waypoint. Got better results/games this time. Today, with the start hive at Sewer, rcbots had the other 2 hives built in 10 to 12 minutes, it was a much better game . So the Generator hive is harder for the alien bots to expand from it seems. The generator hive is further away from the other hives & is boardered by ladders on both sides that make it easier for the marines to contain them. But, I reworked some things around these ladders and other parts of the map too. So, hopefully I'll have an update ready within a day or two.

[edit][12-5-12] I uploaded a new a new wip rcw. It should give a better game than the last one. I did a number of changes, see the readme. I'm still working on a few areas, so there may be another update later...