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> Half-life Original Question, Bot skill and map exploring
Rootuser
post Feb 25 2014, 02:31 AM
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Hi everyone,

I have been a RCBot user for a long time and used HPB before that. It has always worked for me.

I have original Half-life (Sierra version omg!) and want to use RCBot for Deathmatch games in both HL1 Original and HL1 Opposing Force.

I've noticed RCBot works fine, but I have three questions:

1. Should I be using RCBot for HL1 or should I be using RCbot2?? I am confused as to what supports what. I know for HL2 I use RCBot2.

2. The bots don't seem to explore some of the maps very well, do Deathmatch maps need to be waypointed or the like? I don't have an specific objectives other than everyone kill everyone so I am not sure waypointing will do anything or will it?

3. Does adjusting the bot skill in the INI files work for HL1 Original DM? I know it works for NS but I am not sure how it works on HL1.

I play with a pretty regular contingent and we are doing some old-school gaming nights and rounding out the games with bots would be great.

Thanks for all the years of wonderful work!
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madmax2
post Feb 25 2014, 07:41 AM
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Hi Rootuser,

Welcome to the RCbot forums... smile.gif


QUOTE
1. Should I be using RCBot for HL1 or should I be using RCbot2?? I am confused as to what supports what. I know for HL2 I use RCBot2.


Yes, RCbot is for HL1 & HL1 mods. RCbot2 is for HL2 (source engine), TF2, and DOD:s

QUOTE
2. The bots don't seem to explore some of the maps very well, do Deathmatch maps need to be waypointed or the like? I don't have an specific objectives other than everyone kill everyone so I am not sure waypointing will do anything or will it?


Yes, waypoints will help a great deal. Without waypoints bots will not get far from where they spawn in the map, they will have trouble getting better weapons, and will fall into hazards and such, bumping into walls and likely getting stuck. That said, they should fight back and will provide more targets, but it won't be the full RCbot "experience". RCbot (1) only comes with about 8 waypoints for HLDM, but you might be able to rename HPB bot wpt files to RCbot rcw files to get a quick basic waypoint?

You could also make some quick waypoints by running around the map after enabling rcbot autowaypoint, then rcbot waypoint save command. I'd recommend going around ladders, and doing ladders manually if you need them...

QUOTE
3. Does adjusting the bot skill in the INI files work for HL1 Original DM? I know it works for NS but I am not sure how it works on HL1.


Not sure about this, as I'm primarily a NS & Svencoop player with RCbot, but I would think it works for HLDM too, as most bots have a skill adjustment... genmac's the resident expert on HLDM... wink.gif

I think the last time I played HLDM was with Jumbot and HPBbot, like ages ago... Sounds like a LAN party, and funnnn... biggrin.gif

madmax2
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Rootuser
post Feb 25 2014, 08:31 AM
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QUOTE(madmax2 @ Feb 25 2014, 07:41 AM) *

Hi Rootuser,

Welcome to the RCbot forums... smile.gif
Yes, RCbot is for HL1 & HL1 mods. RCbot2 is for HL2 (source engine), TF2, and DOD:s
Yes, waypoints will help a great deal. Without waypoints bots will not get far from where they spawn in the map, they will have trouble getting better weapons, and will fall into hazards and such, bumping into walls and likely getting stuck. That said, they should fight back and will provide more targets, but it won't be the full RCbot "experience". RCbot (1) only comes with about 8 waypoints for HLDM, but you might be able to rename HPB bot wpt files to RCbot rcw files to get a quick basic waypoint?

You could also make some quick waypoints by running around the map after enabling rcbot autowaypoint, then rcbot waypoint save command. I'd recommend going around ladders, and doing ladders manually if you need them...
Not sure about this, as I'm primarily a NS & Svencoop player with RCbot, but I would think it works for HLDM too, as most bots have a skill adjustment... genmac's the resident expert on HLDM... wink.gif

I think the last time I played HLDM was with Jumbot and HPBbot, like ages ago... Sounds like a LAN party, and funnnn... biggrin.gif

madmax2


Hi Madmax2,

Thank you for the replies.

We actually play on Tunngle these days, some things have evolved wink.gif We play lots of the old LAN games that way.

Running around and handling the waypoints will be easy, but what is the best way to approach ladders?

I have read some of the techniques here and some of them seem odd. Do you have to put a path on the ladders or are appropriately spaced waypoints the way to go? I can make it work but I am wondering what works best so the bots won't get stuck. I have tested a couple of maps and they tend to get stuck on the ladders.

Also, I could not find any info on multi-level ladders, for example a ladder that goes up 4 floors but you can get off at any of the 4. The bots have a REALLY hard times with this one, endlessly climbing up and down heh. I am sure it is the way I'm doing it. I am just dropping a waypoint at the bottom and then along the way up the 4 floors. I have not added a path, and I'm not even quite sure yet how to do it correctly.

Any help would be appreciated. I will mess with the bot ability levels and see what happens.

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madmax2
post Feb 25 2014, 08:59 PM
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My ladder approach blink.gif :

Start with the basic standard ladder configuration first, it should work well enough for most ladders. If that doesn't work well for a specific ladder, then I have done some odd ball things to get better results on problem ladders. this has been mostly for svencoop with the newer bot builds. If you are using the rcbot beta v1.441 from the filebase, bots stay closer to the waypoints, and I have less problems at ladders with them.

Yes, you need to connect the bottom and top ladder wpts with a path, preferably one way in the up direction. avoid multiple wpts on the ladder because you don't want a perfect vertical path, there needs to be a slight angle so bots know which way to face. look for other ways for bots to go down, either around the ladder, or a down path to one side of the ladder even if bots have to take a little fall damage. You can make a ladder one way down only, too, but i would only do that on a very long ladder that was critical for bots to go down. Avoid bidirectional paths on ladders whenever possible, there might be an occasional exception to this rule in mods like svencoop walkthrough maps.

First take a look at these posts, they explain the basic ladder waypoint method and placement. It's for Natural Selection, but the ladder part still applies to HLDM & other mods, just ignor the wallstick parts... I should clarify what cheeseh said about the blue line; on long ladders you don't want it to touch the ladder, that would be to much angle. His overhead drawing is excellent and shows the placement you want on most ladders. Sometimes on short ladders, more angle works better and the blue line will touch or go thru the ladder. Some of the odd things i've done on ladders seem to be most useful at short ladders, or in tight areas where bots can't get a good running jump onto the ladder at the bottom.

http://rcbot.bots-united.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=374

more info & drawings here...
http://rcbot.bots-united.com/forums/index....&#entry3719

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
At the bottom of the ladder you want one of these with a straight bidirectional path, if possible.
(don't trap or force bots to the bottom of the ladder with a one-way path, the one-way path should be between the ladder wpts, on the ladder)

CODE
---N---N-L  (NOTE: bots will jump onto the ladder without a jump wpt, just not as high or far. adjusting the distance between the ladder wpt & the first normal wpt will effect how well they jump to the ladder) I usually try this first & see how they do, then change to this if needed...

---N---J-L  (a jump wpt to the ladder often helps, you want the bot to jump to the ladder with an upwards trajectory, or they will bounce off or fall on the bottom ladder wpt & get stuck, adjust the distance of the jump (or normal) wpt closer or further away from the ladder wpt to find the sweet spot)


Often, I use this, it helps when it's not possible to get a straight path at the bottom...

CODE
---SCT---J-L (the stay close to wpt slows the bot down, the bot faces the jump wpt and takes a running leap onto the ladder)


Remember, remove excess paths, you want only one path to the bottom of the ladder through the normal or jump wpt, to the ladder wpt. I won't repost all the odd things i've done for the newer rcbot builds, they may not work well for the old rcbotbeta? But if bots have problems getting stuck to the sides of some ladders, you can add side wpts against the side of the ladder, with a one-way path away from the ladder, making it a jump wpt helps on really sticky ladders. But with careful placement of wpts at the bottom of the ladder, in a DM game, this shouldn't be needed much...

This post just explains ladder construction & why bots do well on some ladders but stick to others. Just info, it won't help with the waypointing...

http://rcbot.bots-united.com/forums/index....&#entry6666

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
You will want some key binds to make the job a lot easier, here is one of the cfg files I exec from the console to begin a waypointing session:

CODE
rcbot waypoint on
rcbot pathwaypoint on
bind "INS" "rcbot waypoint add"
bind "DEL" "rcbot waypoint delete"
bind "END" "rcbot waypoint save"
bind "HOME" "rcbot waypoint load"
bind "F1" "rcbot squad_menu"
bind "F2" "rcbot waypoint_menu"
bind "PGUP" "rcbot pathwaypoint create1"
bind "PGDN" "rcbot pathwaypoint create2"
bind "[" "rcbot pathwaypoint remove1"
bind "]" "rcbot pathwaypoint remove2"
bind "-" "rcbot bot_menu"
bind "F3" "rcbot waypoint info"


On ladders against walls, you sometimes need to noclip the top ladder wpt a little closer to the ladder/wall. Toggle this on for that.. repeat to turn off...

rcbot util noclip_mode

You can have bots run around at the same time you tweak the waypoint if you want immediate feedback on your changes, really speeds up the process on things like ladders, you can kick & re-add bots as needed too... Use these commands so you won't die or distract the bots...

rcbot util notarget_mode
rcbot util godmode


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, sounds like you have one of the exceptions to the rules ladders, you will need multiple ladder wpts on one ladder. I'm hoping that it can be done one way, UP ONLY? If its from a spawn room, then you want one way OUT anyways... If it needs to be down too, it won't work as well, but since it's deathmatch it may not matter, use a separate jump down path if there is room.

What I would do is treat the one ladder as four separate ladders in one. One ladder wpt at the bottom, connected by four separate paths to each ladder wpt at each level. I assume the ladder is against a wall with bots exiting to the side? If so, you need to noclip each ladder wpt closer to the ladder to create an angle for the bots, this alone will reduce the constant up & down on the ladder, the one way paths should eliminate it. Also make the path to each level/ledge from each ladder wpt one way, off only. You may have to experiment with the normal/ledge wpt position to find what works best, the ladder wpt may need to be a little higher too? If you can't get them to step off the ladder to the side good, or they fall, a wacky method I use in this situation that works really well is to make that ledge wpt a ladder wpt. Bots face ladder wpts, so this will make the bot turn & face the ledge and slide off the ladder instead of jumping, which can make them fall in some situations (narrow ledges, etc.). Something like this for each level, but with a slight angle to the vertical ladder path...

CODE
     L-L--  Ledge
     |
     |
N--J-L      Bottom

NOTE: this is not a standard ladder configuration, and is only if you need bots to step off ladders at the top sideways, like to a ledge. also, it only shows the connections, not the actual wpt placement.


In the end, no matter what you do, or how well the ladder wpts are done, there will be the occasional bot hung up at the bottom of a ladder (usually because it fell directly on the bottom ladder wpt), in deathmatch the hung bot will be quickly killed, so it's not much of a problem. But in team mods, it's much more of a problem, and in coop even more serious if bots block the ladder. But most of the problems can be minimized with carefully placed ladder wpts...

Good Luck,

madmax2 wink.gif

btw, rcbot will automaticlly convert HPBbot wpt files to RCbot rcw files when a wpt file is placed in the waypoints\valve sub-folder. But the conversion is not exact, most wpts & paths will convert, but the ladder paths will open/break. Also, most waypoint tags will be removed, such as weapon, ammo, armor, health?, and others. I think either jump or sniper wpts are getting changed to check for lift. Even so, on 2 wpts I tried this on last night, bots started running the maps without me fixing anything, which might be good enough for deathmatch on some maps...
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Rootuser
post Feb 25 2014, 10:39 PM
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Wow excellent documentation. I will try it. If I find any tricks to the trade I will let you know.
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madmax2
post Feb 25 2014, 10:41 PM
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I read your post again... These things should get the bots working on the ladders much better for you, but since it is deathmatch maybe you don't need perfection. On that four level ladder, you might be able to skip the noclip part with four separate ladder paths, and use a single ladder path like you have it, a series of connect ladder wpts. but remove all down paths, and you must connect each ladder wpt to each level wpt, otherwise bots won't get off the ladder if there is no path. It won't work as well, they won't climb the ladder as fast, and may get stuck more at the bottom with the vertical ladder path. But this is easier to make and might be good enough for deathmatch? Your choice... wink.gif
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Rootuser
post Feb 26 2014, 08:10 PM
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QUOTE(madmax2 @ Feb 25 2014, 10:41 PM) *

I read your post again... These things should get the bots working on the ladders much better for you, but since it is deathmatch maybe you don't need perfection. On that four level ladder, you might be able to skip the noclip part with four separate ladder paths, and use a single ladder path like you have it, a series of connect ladder wpts. but remove all down paths, and you must connect each ladder wpt to each level wpt, otherwise bots won't get off the ladder if there is no path. It won't work as well, they won't climb the ladder as fast, and may get stuck more at the bottom with the vertical ladder path. But this is easier to make and might be good enough for deathmatch? Your choice... wink.gif


That might work actually. On this particular map, there are 4 ladders going to the same place. I may try to make one of them down, and the other 3 up. I'll see, what I can also do is have the bot get off 1 floor early possibly so they don't get stuck on the bottom.

I'll play with it. Looking forward to it!
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madmax2
post Feb 27 2014, 09:50 PM
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Sounds like a good plan... Be sure to post your rcw's when you are done, so other RCbot'ers can enjoy them (even if they are modified conversions from HPB). You can use the RCbot website waypoints page too, no storage limit there (just 100k per file). RCbot could use more HLDM waypoints... smile.gif

btw, which HLDM map are you working on now?
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