Force Bots to capture flag/capture waypoints Options

[Septien]

Hi Cheeseh,

First of all, I would like to take the time now to congratulate you for such a magnificent bot, it's very versatile and very straight forward!

Secondly, I was wondering if there is the possibility to enhance and force bots to capture flag/capture waypoints since in some maps like dod_classic_hill which happens to be one of my favorite, there seems to be a flaw in the map (I suppose) since it has 4 capture points; the first 3 have flags and can be captured by a single player however the last capture point doesn't have a flag and needs two players to stand within the capture area in order to capture it. To make matters worst there's a 4th flag that it's included in the map but just for decoration purposes and wasn't meant to be captured. So bots will try to capture this decoration flag instead of the 4th capture point. Again, bots aren't able to recognize nor capture the 4th capture point despite having added a capture waypoint with its corresponding area whereas real players can.

Perhaps you might want to read the topic I posted where you can download the map and waypoints and read a brief summary in regards to the map and bot's behavior.

Link: http://rcbot.bots-united.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1768

So my questions would be:
Could it be possible to force bots to capture a flag/capture waypoint regardless if its not detected by them in the map?

Also, does changing the radius of a particular capture point play any significant role of some sort? Since according to your waypoint guide, capture/flag waypoints are mainly used as a reference for the "waypointer" to know which area each belongs to and are not needed in order for bots to capture them.

Thank you again for all your time, expertise and efforts!

Looking forward to hearing from you,

Pepois

[madmax2]

Hey Septien,

I found a "work around" solution for this on dod_hill_classic, it's not perfect, but it does work on that map..!! The only downside is they will try to run to the flag from the capture wpt/area. But they do hold there long enough to cap, once they realize they can't reach the flag from there, then they return to the cap area. I think a defend tag on the capture area wpt may help them hold longer... Think i'll go try that now....

I added 2 allied bots only for this test... Before they would cap areas 0,1, & 2, and then run around aimlessly. Now they will cap 0,1,2,3 areas, but not allways in that order...

Here is what i did...

First, you had the capture area set to 0 instead of 3, i changed that. I also removed the capture tag from the flag. But neither changed what the bots were doing... Then I connected a path from the capture area3 wpt to the flag wpt, immediatly the bots went for the capture area3 (cause all the other flags were capped). I ran a couple more game/tests, it seems to work . On the second test the allied bots capped this area3, then went & capped area2 to end the game.

Here are some pics...

http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/7/14/332...classic0001.jpg

http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/7/14/332...classic0002.jpg

http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/7/14/332...classic0003.jpg

Sturmbot for dod 1 (HL1 engine), used capture areas connected to elevated flags like this, but bots knew if a capture area was tied to a flag wpt, go to the capture area, not the flag...

So, you are correct, in this situation, rcbot doesn't really work correctly, it can't seperate the flag from the capture area. I checked, if a new wpt is placed on the flag, it is tagged as capture automaticly. If new wpts are placed in the actual capture area (i even went up & under the pole there), they are not detected as capture wpts. So, maybe rcbot just needs to be able to go to a capture area instead of a flag???

Anyways, I think this will help some, and good job on the rcw.. It's a great map too....

[edit]
Played around with this a bit more.. Yeah, the bots don't allways hold in the capture area long enough, and sometimes appear to catch on the morter & trench there, which helps. But at other times they do appear to hold in the capture area, especially when the first 3 flags have been capped. It definately makes them go to this area and they know when it has been capped and start moving to one of the uncapped areas.

Be sure the capture area thats connected to the flag is tagged noaxis, so the axis won't attempt to cap the flag on the wall. Or maybe the flag can be tagged noaxis, i didn't try that? More tweaks i tried was making the 3 wpts nearest the pole, capture/defend/noaxis/area3 and i reduced the radius on the original capture area to 10, and it's still the only capture area connected to the flag. I did leave the unreachable on the flag, it seems to help the bots recognize a little faster, not to go to it, even tho they still do.. i made the wpts in the trenches there, nonteam/snipe/mg/defend/area3. You could probably remove the snipe & mg tags from them now, i don't think they are needed anymore. I'd leave the defend tags on them tho...

You might want to check the area tags in the flagged bunkers, I was seeing area 0 on most the sniper/mg wpts?

Also, just for the heck of it, I put wpts on the other 3 flags, and connected the capture wpts in each bunker to it's flag on top. They are tagged as capture/noaxis. allies will tend to go into the corner of the bunker because of this, but the axis won't.. I'm not sure if this change is helping allies recognize flag caps faster or not? It was something i was trying, because its the way it was done with sturmbot/dod1...

Later,
max

P.S. I started waypointing sora_b3 today, got the main paths done, and bots are capping all the flags, woo hoo...

[genmac]

Yeah a force capture would be very nice for these undetected brush capture points entities.

The bot can detect the flag's entity (dod_control_point) but not those brush capture entites (dod_capture_area) tied to it.
Good thing there some work around on that but the problem is bots will tend
to just navigate in random rather than really pursue the goals simply bec. their not truly auto-detected or no paths connected to the detected control points which is kinda hard to wpt since those are on top exactly on the flags on those 3 bunkers I've checked on dod_hill.

That's why before I wpt a whole map I check first if flags and bomb areas are truly detected coz way back 0.7 lots of flags and bomb areas are soo undetected driving me nuts but tncfully Cheeseh managed to fix that, as always hehe.
So now let's hope he can finally fix or code something out for these pesky undetected brush capture entities for good.

[madmax2]

Now I remember how sturmbot handled capture areas like this . It used a special path to the flag, bots couldn't walk across it, but it allowed them to know which team owned the flag (connection create vs pathwaypoint create). When sturmbot entered a capture area, they would automaticlly prone & hold for x amount of time, but would give up if the capture wpt wasn't connected to the flag with this special path. If it was connected to the flag, then they would hold there until it was capped.

Maybe rcbot could be tricked with something like this, a special path, that made them think they had allready reached the flag wpt, but in fact they are on the capture wpt??? So they hold there for a while, until the flag is capped??

Here are a couple pics of the old sturmbot v1.5 capture & flag wpts from dod 3.1beta mod on dod_ramelle, and dod_thunder next to the tank, now known as dod_donner... It shows the special connection path (purple) from the capture wpt to the flag. Even with with capture & flag wpts on the same level/plain, it was really the only proper way to wpt a capture area with sturmbot, so the bots would detect flag ownership properly. Just a normal path to the flag didn't work properly with capture areas.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/7/14/332...ramelle0000.jpg

http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/7/14/332...thunder0000.jpg

[Septien]

Wow!!! Thank you Madmax2 and Genmac for taking the time and shading some light into this matter!!!

Thats a great workaroud Madmax2!!!! I loved looking at the pictures you uploaded and reading all the insight you discovered!!!

Could it be possible if you could email me your edited wpts for this map? then perhaps I could delete the ones I uploaded with yours!

I can tell you guys also feel quite enthusiastic as I do about this particular map.

Nice to hear that you are working on a new map. Will look forward to dl it once you are done with the wpts.

Thank you gentleman

Pepois

[madmax2]

Sure, I'll have to get the wpt off my other PC, check back here in 15 minutes or so & I'll post them temporaily for you...

[Septien]

Sure, I'll have to get the wpt off my other PC, check back here in 15 minutes or so & I'll post them temporaily for you...

Thank you so much Madmax2!!!!
Actually I did all the tweaks that you so kindly mentioned but it would be nice just to compare it with your file!

Pepois

[madmax2]

I put it in the hill_classic thread... Yeah, I don't know how many maps are like this in dods, but in the old dod, there were a lot... So, if there are a lot like this, rcbot would be better if cheeseh can come up with a fix, like a special connection path to the flags from capture areas...

[genmac]

Oh yeah good old Sturmbot electric beams wpts hehe man I love those.
Too bad Jowo - Sturmbot's author no longer with us or he could help us out here or probably made a Sturmbot Source for DODS. So Cheeseh plz stay away on those beaches down there in Asia.

BTT...there are lots of dods maps with these undetected objectives latest one I've encountered is from dod_dijon wine store area but luckily the axis always go there but allies not too much, they get pulled towards the shorter route to the objectives.

[madmax2]

@genmac

Yeah, that was a bummer, what happened to Jowo, was a freak 1 in a billon thing ..

In hill_classic the bots do detect the flag, just not the capture area. I think it was the same in old dod with sturmbot. The fix was an unwalkable path to the flag. So are there any maps that don't use flags? There has to be goals if not flags? I think it would work the same as with sturmbot, but cheesehs the expert...

[genmac]

Well seems Jowo was one of those who died on that freakish tsunami incident in Singapore if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah it's detected but only if you put a wpt exactly on the flag but seems their detecting it inside the bunker to but
even if when you try to put a wpt there it won't be yellow automatically.
The one inside the fortress totally not detected but seems you guys found a solution which seems weird but good
coz this certain map dods crashes when bots uses a capture + prone wpts.

[madmax2]

Well seems Jowo was one of those who died on that freakish tsunami incident in Singapore if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, thats the one, the first big tsunami in the news a few years ago....

Yeah it's detected but only if you put a wpt exactly on the flag but seems their detecting it inside the bunker to but
even if when you try to put a wpt there it won't be yellow automatically.
The one inside the fortress totally not detected but seems you guys found a solution which seems weird but good
coz this certain map dods crashes when bots uses a capture + prone wpts.

I noticed that too, they are detecting the flags inside the bunkers and capture areas are not automatic there. All the flag posts are detected as capture (yellow), including the one on the wall. The capture area is not detected as capture.

I really haven't tried enough custom maps to know, but don't most maps with capture areas have flags associated with them? And isn't the flag, the capture point that rcbot actually detects? If so, it seems the sturmbot solution would work here too? An unwalkable path connection from the capture wpt/area to the flag wpt..

So, if all maps have flags or hidden flags (dod_control_point) in them, this could work. But if there are maps without flags (dod_control_point), and only have capture points (dod_capture_area) in some locations, then this won't work? Any thoughts on that???


max

[genmac]

I really haven't tried enough custom maps to know, but don't most maps with capture areas have flags associated with them? And isn't the flag, the capture point that rcbot actually detects?

Basically yeah.

So, if all maps have flags or hidden flags (dod_control_point) in them, this could work. But if there are maps without flags (dod_control_point), and only have capture points (dod_capture_area) in some locations, then this won't work? Any thoughts on that???

As far as I know and as far as whatever left to my mapping memory background what rcbot2 can't detect are those huge entity brushes like that of dod_hill and dod_dijon wine store, I may be wrong on this though.
Entity brushes btw is an invinsible box that when a player enters it, it triggers either a bombing zone, hostage, or buy zone in cs mapping so for dod it's either a capture or bombing area sometimes not used on certain maps.
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Fi...ods_capzone.jpg


It was a lot worst during 0.7 certain flags and bombing areas aren't automatically detected like dod_strand and dod_goodwood_b3 and when it's undetected even if you put a capture tag the bot really won't do good as compared to well detected ones. Cheeseh adjusted something and fix the problem so may be he could do something more for the latter but seems he's very busy attending his family coz he'll soon be a father.

Also one time I overlooked putting a capture wpt on a bomb area but the bot still managed to plant a bomb there coz it's AI already detected it as it passed by it even though there's no formal capture wpt in place.