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> Help with waypointing.
The HHH
post Dec 2 2013, 06:51 PM
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So,I am capable of waypointing with Rcbot2 but I saw that RCBot 1 is a bit different,Can someone help me out a bit with what waypoint flags do,and help me with getting bots to do multiple Objectives in one map,E.G. Open door,Proceed through,Then use a Lever and then exit.

I am talking about Sven-Co-Op BTW.
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w00tguy123
post Dec 2 2013, 09:00 PM
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Bots should do all the things you mentioned automatically if the buttons and levers are on the way to the objective waypoint. You might want to place an objective waypoint at a button/lever if it is in another room than the door so that they go near it more often.

On the opposite side of the door place an Opens Later waypoint so bots don't expect the door to open by running into it.

Are there any specific flags you need help with? There are explanations for each flag in rcbot_waypoints.txt from your rcbot folder
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madmax2
post Dec 5 2013, 08:39 AM
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Hi The_HHH,

We can always use more waypointers, please feel free to share your waypoints here... btw, what map(s) are you working on?

This is way to long, but here ya go.... wink.gif

As for waypointing door buttons, normal wpts nearby will often work, but sometimes it won't work well. Bots sometimes have problems seeing or recognizing the buttons. Some doors don't need a wpt on the button, bots will see it or look for it, if the door doesn't open for them automaticly, after bumping into it. (ex. the eye scanner buttons in royals1, it takes one bot & a player to do it, but there is no wpt directly on either eye scanner. There are a few doors in the activist series that don't have wpts directly on the buttons, one is near the end of activist1.)

Generally, what I do with door buttons, is first try a normal wpt, if that doesn't work well, I may try a red "lift button" wpt (it helps on some door buttons), then objective last. The thing with objective wpts, is you can have to many, so try to only use them where they are needed most. Ideally, objective wpts go at the end of the level, or end of the section of the map, or on a goal/action to be done. If the map is linear in its construction, multiple objective wpts can work well, by making a one way path just beyond the objective wpt (such as thru a door), so bots won't back track to it again and will move towards the next objective wpt.

Remember, bots can't see objective wpts behind opens later wpts that are blocked by an object or a door, until that obstruction is removed. Most simple doors should not need an opens later wpt, they eat cpu/memory, and to many may not be a good thing? I may of used as many as 10 in one map, but usually less. I usually use them for major events that open or close doors/obstructions. this can be triggered by a door button, but the door may be in another room or part of the map. I usually only use them for major event triggers, which could be killing off all the enemies in a room, then a door opens automaticlly someplace in the map. The opens later wpt on the other side of the door is a new path available to the bots which should lead to another objective wpt in the next section , somewhere.

In a non-linear map, where bots have to visit the same area more than once, or where the map has some sort of central hub design to go out to different sections of the map, and those areas don't get closed off by some event. it can be difficult to prevent the bots from returning to completed sections when using multiple objective wpts... They can get into a looping thing on those kind of maps. On a couple maps i waypointed, i used increasing numbers of objective wpts to get the bots to go to the next section & not loop back to a finished one so much, it sorta works, but didn't eliminate the looping completely. It's kinda a hacky method, so use minimal objective wpts if possible.

As I build a rcw, I add & remove objective wpts to test what I have done so far, but many get removed before I finalize & release the rcw. I try to use them for major goals only, in each section of a map, but you may need to use them on an occasional problem door, too.

On some buttons, bots just won't press them unless you noclip either a normal or objective wpt into the button, i usually aim the path right into the button. For the most problem buttons this method has worked every time but once or twice, I couldn't get bots to press the lift button in activist2. It seems some buttons are different & require different methods. near the end of activist2, there are some machinery buttons that bots would not press reliably. what worked best and well, was an objective wpt against the button connected to a normal wpt that was noclipped into the button. in some cases you may need to force a one way path thru the noclipped wpt.

If you want to see examples of some problem buttons & what I did to fix it, take a look at some of my waypoints on these maps:

for noclipped lift button wpts - infested 1 or 2 , activist 1

other problem buttons - machinery buttons at end of activist2, the doors in richard_boderman

There are 3 types of lift wpts, the red lift button wpt is the one most used. the white "wait for lift" wpt, is for lifts or movers without buttons. I finally found a use for it with the horizontal movers in crystal2, and the lifts in crystal1.

I should say, its fun (or frustrating rolleyes.gif ) trying to get the bots to do everything in a map, i have fallen into that trap many times. Sometimes it's just better to leave some things for the player to do in sven, the player may have more fun too.

I hope this helps, and let us know how its going... smile.gif

max

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genmac
post Dec 7 2013, 11:27 AM
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@max...That's a long one bro hehe but man that's tough...waypointing a bot in a SP/Coop manner....like the Xen level jump section ...do the bots manage to jump those?
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The HHH
post Dec 7 2013, 06:17 PM
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Hey again,Thanks for your support everyone! biggrin.gif

I am working on Escape series 2 and 3,Since I cant find waypoints for 2 and the ones for 3 are no longer downloadable.

I also have problems with the Elevator,They do not seem to use them properly,I might also be too stupid for elevators unsure.gif
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madmax2
post Dec 8 2013, 04:40 AM
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QUOTE
@max...That's a long one bro hehe but man that's tough...waypointing a bot in a SP/Coop manner....like the Xen level jump section ...do the bots manage to jump those?


@genmac

Heh heh, yeah I got a bit wordy on that post rolleyes.gif ... Yep, bots should be able to make those Xen jumps, although jumps are one of the harder things to do with movers (crystal2 Xen puzzle area took a while).. The "wait for lift" wpt works for that. To keep bots on the movers, use crouch and WFL wpts, keeps them from running off the mover...


@The HHH

Here is a new link for Escape Series 3, in case you want w00tguy123's wpts.

Escape_Series_3_RCBot_Waypoints.rar
http://www10.zippyshare.com/v/6270881/file.html

There have been a lot of changes to the maps since they were done, so they might need updating? Yeah, I forgot to fix those links when I lost fileden ohmy.gif , i still need to get better file hosting... I think all the other rcws are in w00tguy's waypoint motherload pack... yeah, Escape Series 2 is incomplete I believe... It would be cool to have the whole series waypointed ... smile.gif

As for lift problems, they can be difficult, maybe I can help? If you like, I could look at the lift, there are many different configurations (what map & location?). Generally, bots have the most problems going up lifts, getting them to press the buttons, or getting stuck under them, etc. Down lifts should be no problem.

With most lifts, the only wpt type you will need is the red lift button wpt. I've had to use it different ways, depending on the lift configuration. Sometimes I place it right on the lift buttons, other times I place it in front of the lift with a normal wpt on the button. It is suppose to be near the lift & the button in a safe place for bots to wait. Yes they will wait at the red lift button wpt for a lift to come down. But occasionally, for whatever reason, it won't work with a particular lift. So far, with sven, I've only had one lift it would not work with (bots would not press the lift button), I had far more problems with lifts in Natural Selections maps. Like I mention above, you might need to noclip a wpt(red) into the lift button, to get bots to press it. A forced one way path might be needed too?

max
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The HHH
post Dec 8 2013, 05:32 AM
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Thanks for that, madmax! The Elevator problem I currently have is on Escape series 2a,The elevator right at the beginning.
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madmax2
post Dec 8 2013, 08:12 AM
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QUOTE(The HHH @ Dec 7 2013, 09:32 PM) *

Thanks for that, madmax! The Elevator problem I currently have is on Escape series 2a,The elevator right at the beginning.

Hmmm, I checked Escape series 2a, and I didn't find an elevator at the beginning? It was more like a gate with 2 eye scanners? I checked it on sc4.8, are we using the same version? I went thru the movie theater, prison cells, past the pump station with the movers, and to chapter2 (down the drain?), still no elevator?

btw, w00tguy123's waypoint motherload pack, has a incomplete 2a waypoint...


-------------------------------
Hey w00tguy123,

Happy Holidays, man... smile.gif

max
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The HHH
post Dec 8 2013, 09:03 AM
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QUOTE(madmax2 @ Dec 8 2013, 09:12 AM) *

Hmmm, I checked Escape series 2a, and I didn't find an elevator at the beginning? It was more like a gate with 2 eye scanners? I checked it on sc4.8, are we using the same version? I went thru the movie theater, prison cells, past the pump station with the movers, and to chapter2 (down the drain?), still no elevator?

btw, w00tguy123's waypoint motherload pack, has a incomplete 2a waypoint...
-------------------------------
Hey w00tguy123,

Happy Holidays, man... smile.gif

max


Oopsies,Silly me,I meant the map right after that,I am sorry unsure.gif

It must be 2b then,At the beginning there needs to be an elevator,Head up there and then you should see lasers,If thats not the case I should jump off a cliff tongue.gif
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madmax2
post Dec 8 2013, 08:40 PM
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Heh heh, no problem, my memory glitches too tongue.gif ... I tried some things on that lift this morning, so far I can't get them to press the lift button either. I ran debug on the bots, and I don't think they are seeing the button entity at all, on the button in the lift. I'll try repositioning the wpts a few more times, when i get more time later today, but its not looking good. I haven't heard them attempt to press the buttons even once. sad.gif

You may have to, have the bots use the ladders around the lift. The first player up the lift will open the doors to the ladders. I think that will be an okay "work around"... wink.gif

Later,
max
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The HHH
post Dec 9 2013, 02:34 PM
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QUOTE(madmax2 @ Dec 8 2013, 09:40 PM) *

Heh heh, no problem, my memory glitches too tongue.gif ... I tried some things on that lift this morning, so far I can't get them to press the lift button either. I ran debug on the bots, and I don't think they are seeing the button entity at all, on the button in the lift. I'll try repositioning the wpts a few more times, when i get more time later today, but its not looking good. I haven't heard them attempt to press the buttons even once. sad.gif

You may have to, have the bots use the ladders around the lift. The first player up the lift will open the doors to the ladders. I think that will be an okay "work around"... wink.gif

Later,
max


This might just be the reason why there are no Escape series 2 waypoints! The ladders,I tried that,Its hard since there is not much space for the normal waypoint so they jump on properly
They VERY rarely get up properly,Before running down instantly.
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madmax2
post Dec 10 2013, 01:49 AM
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Yeah, ladders can be difficult too, especially when they are in tight spaces like this. I sometimes have to use a non-standard ladder configuration, something different than just N--J--L at the bottom and different at the top too! Here is an example wpt at those 2 ladders. It's not perfect, and you may be able to improve on it, but bots are getting up the ladders ok, with maybe one thing I'd like to be better (couched bot at bottom of first ladder)... I did both ladders differently so I can show you some of the tricks I use...

Before I explain that, I should say I like bots to be a little looser on the ladders, so I have my config update_ladder_time set to 0.20, it seems to help them unstick & climb on some ladders. That said, that first ladder is a bit sticky at the bottom.

You mentioned bots running down the ladders. As a rule (there are a few exceptions in svencoop), make ladder paths one way up only, this will help a lot, but occasionally bots may back or fall down a ladder. Usually, I think it's better to have a bidirectional path at the bottom of the ladders. this allows bots to back up and take another run at it if they hang the first time. Also, a jump to the bottom ladder wpt often helps, this is all pretty standard ladder stuff...

I'll explain what I did on the ladders & why, this can be changed to your preferences, it's just some things I've found to be useful on difficult ladders like these.

Starting at the bottom ladder, in tight areas like this, i often use "stay close to" (sct) wpts on a right angle approach, to slow bots down for a jump to the ladder, so they will hit it straight on. btw, at the first ladder, I'm using what i consider to be a standard ladder configuration, with maybe the exception of the crouched ladder wpt at the top. the crouched ladder wpt at the top is actually to help at the bottom! If one bot at a time comes to the bottom of the ladder its really not needed, in fact single bots are getting stuck more at the bottom because of the crouch at the top! but without the crouched ladder wpt at the top, more than one bot arriving at the bottom of the ladder can cause a jam up, if the second bot touches the heals of another going up the ladder. then the ladder is completely blocked for both bots & players. the crouched ladder wpt at the top, causes any bot stuck at the bottom to be crouched, then both bots & players can jump over the stuck bot and climb the ladder. Eventually the suck crouched bot will start climbing, but it may take a while, which is the downside to using crouched ladder wpts. At the top of the ladder, i also noclipped the ladder wpt slightly closer to the wall & above the ladder, it helps the bots climb ladders without falling, by changing the angle between the bottom & top ladder wpts (not so vertical).

The second ladder is very non-standard, and I don't think i've used this exact config before, but it works. One reason for doing it this way, as you can see by the first ladder, bots tend to stick longer to the ladders at the bottom when using ladder wpts (especially, top ladder wpts).

I'll start at the top of the second ladder this time. I put a ladder wpt in front of the door there (say what!!! blink.gif). Its likely not needed here, and its not for the door. Bots will face ladder wpts, so what that does is cause a bot at the top of the ladder to turn & face the ladder wpt and slide off the top of the ladder smoothly, without jumping wild like. Its very useful for ladders against walls like this, where bots need to exit the top of the ladder sideways to a narrow or dangerous ledge.

The top ladder wpt, which is not ladder tagged, its a normal wpt with a sct tag on it. by not ladder tagging it, bots won't stick as much at the bottom of the ladder. and since i didn't raise and noclip the top wpt, the sct helps pull the bots all the way up the ladder. Combining sct tags with top ladder wpts will sometimes help, but often causes bots to stick even longer at the bottom, making them more persistant, causing jams at the bottom!

At the bottom of the second ladder i used jump wpts! Usually i don't use 2 jump wpts like this, and not on long ladders (mostly on short ladders). basicly, without a ladder wpt at the top, bots will jump around and not stick to the ladder so much, backing up & jumping onto the ladder. This often works well for short ladders in very tight places, but with just one jump wpt as the bottom ladder wpt, and a normal or crouch(into vent) at the top. There was a sct tag on the jump wpt just before the ladder, but i removed it. SCT tags sometimes help and other times hurt, they slow bots down and make them jump shorter when combined like this. With the jumps here, bots can jump over a hung up bot, this reduces or eliminates jam up's too.

So, for ladders, the standard config doesn't always work well, because not all ladders have a straight level path to them. So I often have to experiment to find out what work best for a specific ladder. It can be time consuming and frustrating, but most ladders can be done quickly with something close to the standard ladder config. This is a tough ladder setup, for sure... dry.gif

Ladder Test rcw

escape_series_2b_rcw2.zip
http://www2.zippyshare.com/v/87330894/file.html

Hope this helps... wink.gif

max
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The HHH
post Dec 10 2013, 04:04 PM
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Thanks a lot,Max,I will make sure to upload my waypoints if I get them done ^^
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